Sophia Jirafe ([info]sophia_helix) wrote,
@ 2004-07-24 23:44:00
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Current mood: content
Current music:Sealab 2021
Entry tags:best of, meta: fandom

three years, three months, and 1,188 entries later
So, a while ago, I tried to write this post and lost it to the vagaries of my computer. Moaning and bitching (in public, too!) ensued. I made some quick notes and now, more than a week later, am taking a stab at reconstruction. (Utilizing, this time, the SAVE DRAFT function I moronically ignored last time.) I don't think it's quite the same as before, but c'est la vie.



You'll note I just used a cut-tag there. Which is as good a jumping-off place as any.

Why do people use cut-tags? Usually, it's for one of the following reasons:

"TMI" - Usually it's either emotional or personal information, usually locked and possibly filtered.

"Review" - Usually a summation of or opinion on a movie, comic, book, television show, or something else. Often combined with "Spoilers"

"Spoilers" - Usually concerning recently-aired television episode, or recently-published comic issue, though some people use it for all types of media. Probably the most often-cited reason for a cut-request from a reader.

"Story" - Usually used because a story is long, though some people use it for any fiction, including drabbles.

"Boring" - Usually concerning roundups of the poster's day, work complaints, to-do lists. Has an overlap with "TMI." Interestingly, often seems to be a pre-emptive strike against being considered boring, or at least against not knowing one is boring.

"Length" - Usually a completely subjective reason.

I'd say 5 out of 6 are pretty valid, most of the time, but what's up with that last reason?

(We're now jumping off.)

Because no LJ-meta post would be complete without a brief history, and because I think it's interesting to look at how we got to making this form of communication our primary means, let's sum. Briefly. You have cons, which involved actual face-to-face contact, combined with the use of zines, which involved actual physical possession of paper with words on. Discussion at this point involves talking, but is heavily supplemented with written communication. Enter the internet and the birth of the BBS, which provided centrality, threading, and zero privacy. Along comes e-mail and mailing lists, threading and centrality are reduced but privacy has a heyday, from private e-mails to private lists. We're still gathering in groups, though, and while there's a degree of self-selection going on the membership of any list is still a fixed quality which is, importantly, impervious to change by any one list member. Blogs came along, but were site- and single fan-oriented in the same way a "Rants" or "Essays" page might have been on a personal website. And then we had Livejournal.

(For the sake of disclosure, where do I fit into this timeline? I came aboard just in time for the blossoming of mailing lists, sometime in 1998, and acquired a Livejournal in spring of 2001, just before they blossomed. I went away for the summer with five Friends and came back to find out that fandom had moved in. *g*)

So here we are. What makes Livejournal so drastically different?

Well, for starters, there's that self-selection thing. No longer are we blocking that hated listmate, or scanning for messages from the people we really like -- we now have the capacity put all those people in one place. We've got a pretty nice linking capacity, with individual posts pretty easy to find, especially if someone's organized their memories section well. We're got communities for linking entries, and kind-hearted people ([info]coffeeandink, [info]fabu, and [info]stakebait, to name a few from my own list) who frequently do round-up posts of these links, weeding through fandom for the rest of us lazy or time-constricted fen. The signal-to-noise ratio is improved -- but isn't it noisy in here?

This is over-simplifying, but it's pretty easy to spot the source of the noise, besides friendslists of 250: the concept of "Off-Topic" simply doesn't exist anymore. So we're not scanning past the entries of people we dislike (unless you're an auto-friender who doesn't use filters), or scanning to find our favorite people, because now we have the capacity to actually choose our neighbors. What we've lost is a capacity to filter for subject, and I don't think anyone realized how valuable that was until it was gone.

Lists, of course, had moderators, and boards had public opinion, and both of those worked towards keeping people talking about the topic du jour. If you were on a Xena fic list, then by god, you were going to be reading some Xena stories, or else. If, like me, you don't trust even the fic list, you can join a recs list or read a recs site to have your reading material seriously filtered to your tastes, be they for spanking fic or just above-average grammar.

That doesn't exist anymore. You can join a community, of course, though I tend to find those even more specific than lists, to the point that I ache for a little variety. (The general absence of discussion topics may have something to do with this, and I won't even get started on the difficulty of following threaded comments to an entry [until later, of course]). You can wait for people to give you links to good stories or good posts, or read recs blogs, but there's no one out there reading through all those posts on your friendslist and nicely compiling a list of all the fandom-related ones for you to read, by topic and poster. We've got the freedom (though it was at first rather hotly disputed) to say whatever we want, because this is our piece of intellectual turf, buster, and we are individuals.

Ahh, individuals.

Look at your friendslist. If you're like me, you're seeing a page full of vibrant colors, vibrant images, instantly conveying personalities, tastes, and moods, possibly even matched as well as possible to the posters' journal colors. (You know, if you want to drive yourself crazy trying to do that.) If you continue to emulate me (and really, why wouldn't you? *g*), you're visually hard-wired, so this looks even more vibrant. It takes up more mental space. It stops being The Internet Talking To You About Buffy, and starts being 79 Strangers Talking About Buffy, Stargate, That One Fandom You Hate, And Their Bosses.

What did we used to do? Look at a block of text with a name. In this context, Mary Sue Ficwriter and Worship-Worthy Fic Queen weren't so different. You might have had associations with that name that will color what you expect to read, but for most of us, I think, associations are triggered much more strongly with visuals. (Not to mention the fact that the mood icons and the userpics are often chosen to reflect a mood or topic as well.) That block of Courier New with some code at the top has become a personal statement, rather than a part of a contiguous whole, thanks to the phenomenon of the userpic.

They're vibrant, they're differentiated, they're downright strange. We've never seen anything like them before in fandom, with the exception of the sigquote, which doesn't seem to have carried the same weight. They almost seem quaint now. Never before have fans had such an immediate and intrusive opportunity to amuse, impress, offend and insult. We bitch about creatorship rights, credit-giving, My Fandom, cliques, spoilers, nudity, and the recent Tiny Text wars.

Icons are:

- Easy to make
- Easy to borrow
- Easy to modify
- Easy to see

which makes them perfect weapons and tools for people with lots of time, lots of wit, and/or lots of grudges. In other words, 99% of us!

So it's new, and customizable, and image-heavy. It's also organized differently, with threads tied to posts rather than free-forming through list archives and mailboxes. With communities, this makes for a very small time footprint on things you don't want to read (you skip the post instead of deleting all 30 messages in a thread), which pretty much sounded the death knell for mailing lists, I think. Posts are easy to ignore, drop back out of sight quickly, but are easy to find and archive when you want them. And yet... communities aren't the automatic hubs that mailing lists once were. Worship-Worthy Fic Queen is as likely to be a hub as a discussion communities, and far more likely than a fic list (in terms of generating comments, not necessarily members).

Quick: When did the BNF = bad!wrong!evol concept first evolve? Answer: At the same time as the ability to see how many Friends a person has.

There have always been BNFs, whether or not they were called that. It was easy to see if someone was getting recced a lot, or agreed with a lot, or publicly stalked/praised a lot. It was easy to know who you thought was a BNF, based on their posts or stories or archive-building skills, and easy to see who worked the strings in fandom as mods, archivists, or creators of fanon. But they didn't publish all their e-mail on their websites, which is just about exactly what the comment function in LJ does for us.

Public feedback used to be a phenomenon, to a small degree. So did public adulation. It didn't used to be the rule. I admit, I've always been a slow feedbacker, mostly because I always e-mail it, and the advent of the comment function has made it much easier for me, since I tend to be a sender-of-praises feedbacker, rather than a "You guys HAVE to read this"-type public feedbacker. But the fact that almost everything gets done in front of the curtains (even filtered posts are rarely aimed at a single person) makes those social distinctions between Mary Sue, Worship-Worthy, and Average Scribbler even more, well, distinct. You're suddenly seeing exactly who liked the story, and why (which can, of course be helpful for the rest of us, to know what other think works in a story), and what kinds of posts generate comments for others, and most oddly, lots of varied personal comments. The sorts of fun, shallow, intimate exchanges that used to be the province of private mails suddenly spiral away into long comment threads, weirdly enough, sometimes in someone else's journal.

Since we go on about our intellectual turf so much, it can be utterly jarring to have two people chatting, or fighting, in a thread in your blog. Sometimes, as happened not too long ago on my own friends list, the side conversation can become not just irritating to the writer, but downright offensive, which begs the oft-disputed question Does the fact that the discussion originated in someone's blog mean that their opinions continue to be a factor in the ensuing threads?. I don' t think we're going to answer that one any time soon.

I do think, though, that one of the most important aspects of comments is exactly that -- they're comments. Not really even responses, and certainly not the equally-weighted posts of mailing lists. They're subordinate. They appear below, their font is often smaller. They don't show up with the post on friends-lists, but must be accessed from a separate page. On some journal styles (I'm thinking of Boxer and Component in particular), the layout and threading is so terrible as to make comments difficult to read and follow, and I myself often don't. Most importantly, far less text space is allotted to comments, and I think it's sort of generally agreed that if you have to make a "Part 2" comment after your first one, you're saying too much. You're "rambling in someone else's journal." Go make your own post.

What does one do, though, after making one's own post? You can go comment in the original post and link it back, you can hope the original poster will mention it, or that people chronicling the discussion will include yours too, but if your post is in response to Worship-Worthy's post, there's absolutely no way you're going to get to the same kind of response. She's got 971 people reading her; you have 71. Unless someone largely-read mentions you, or enough people follow your link back from Page 2 of the comments to her post, you're just not going to get the same readership.

And that, I've begun to feel, is a very disturbing central inequity in the structure of Livejournal. Of course people had the right to block or delete or skip posts on mailing lists, or skim BBS posts, or whatever means we used to employ to not reading things that didn't interest us. But now the un-famous have been deprived of even the possibility of being heard, simply because if you don't want to be interested, you don't have to be. Can you imagine a mailing list, en masse, deciding that only the most well-liked people could post?

If you're lucky, like me, and you're clinging to the title of Average Scribbler by your fingernails, chances are you have a Friend or two who's largely-read and mentions your posts or stories from blue moon to blue moon, and you can get just enough readership to thrive that way. (This in no way constitutes bragging or complaining -- I'm just stating the facts of my fannish existence.) But what happens when you haven't been so readable lately? When it's been several months since your last meta post, you're not doing episode reviews because the show is on hiatus, and you've been blocked on your writing for a while? It's easy to get forgotten, and from there, it's hard to get back up.

There's another way to gain readers, of course, which is to comment and friend prolifically. This isn't necessarily harder than posting thoughtful mailing list messages, or writing detailed feedback, but it seems like a backwards way to earn what should be a basic right, now turned privilege -- the right to have a voice. Now you can only earn the right to be widely heard via the arduous BNF route of producing, in steady supply, the most valued commodities of our community.

And I think that's what a lot of Livejournal flamewars and kerfluffles and bitchfights have boiled down to, though it may not be obvious on the surface. There have always been cliques. There have always been friendships with benefits -- getting recced by your buddy, getting webdesign from a talented friend, getting beta and vid-editing from the best of the fandom. That's pretty human. But I think what drives so many people who feel marginalized is that their community is just so small now, comprised only of people who genuinely like them or are interested in them, and while that notion sounds appealing on paper, I don't think facing a Friends-Of list of 12 is particularly heartening when you're reading 120, even if those are your 12 bestest buddies. The fact that you're an absolute non grata in fandom is maddening when you know it's just because people don't have the time.

Of course, it's pretty fair. I sure as hell only have people on my friends-list I'm really interested in, because I can barely even keep up with them. I'm not going to go around and add everyone whose name I ever see in the comments to someone's blog, or everyone on my Friendfriends. It's how this thing works. Why do I only have time for less than a hundred people? Back to the concept of "no such thing as Off-Topic anymore."

The less-than-a-hundred people I have friended probably didn't use to post five times a day, at least not in the sense we now have of "posting." When they posted to mailing lists or bulletin boards five times a day, it was in response to discussion threads -- essentially, the equivalent of our current comment system. Now you can post 100 comments a day (which may not be obvious to others, since they may be well-dispersed), and still easily post five journal entries. And absolutely zero of those five journal entries are "required" to be anything approaching what we would have called on-topic, back in the day.

This is my modus operandi too, of course. My fannish content has drastically shrunk of late, as my shows go off the air and I don't find new replacement fandoms. I don't feel like disappearing just because I'm not critiquing an episode, so I write about other things, sometimes personal, sometimes related to other types of non-fan media, and I'm pretty certain that sort of post is often skimmed. Hell, I know a few people whose content is almost 100% non-fannish, and their read-by list is equal to or greater than mine. There's a taste for everything.

But the annoying fact remains that there's no way to filter people's posts for the fan-related content we're generally interested in. It's obviously a problem, since without any kind of central way of monitoring how often and what people post, there's no gentle, peer-based way of encouraging people to post less, or post shorter, or post "on topic." (And neither, it can be argued, should there be.) There's no "fan content" feed to subscribe to, no way to get your Friends to better announce when they're posting fannish things, or any way of getting onto a "fannish" filter without forcing people to lock, and then filter, their posts.

The lack of peer control is, in the end, one of the most frustrating aspects of livejournal. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, or something that should go away. I'm just saying -- it's changed the way we interact.

Humans control their personal herds with, well, herd behavior. It isn't rants that change behavior, or hissy fits, or even kerfluffles. It's those generalized, unspoken, emotions that influence the masses, and with the dispersed, multifannish, disjointed nature of livejournal, it's almost impossible to have that sort of indirect influence over each other. What's the "norm"? What's the "status quo"? I know people who make incredibly short posts several times a day, people who post large quiz results or large polls, people who write about personal things at length and uncut, people who write at length and uncut, period. I see, from time to time, people complaining about this, but it seems that nothing really changes. Some of the most irritating modes of communication are utterly persistent, beyond all understanding.

I say beyond all understanding, because we have personal accountability like never before. Journal identity, in this vast and changing community, is of vital importance. Your username, attached to a recognizable userpic, is your only currency. Not only is it rather incumbent on you to keep this identity intact and in good condition (making it a daunting prospect to change a username), but it's damn easy to see who no longer wants to read what you have to say. You'd think that, given the ease of checking to see who's "unfriended" one, there would be more concern to not do things that annoy one's readers, but that seems, inexplicably, not to be the case. You could be an absolute raving asshole on a mailing list, and not get kicked off unless you committed a cardinal offense like plagiarism or serious harassment, but people, under the banner of It's My Intellectual Turf, commit amazing fannish faux pas despite tangible evidence it annoys people.

Perhaps people don't unsub over bad posting behavior. I'm not sure. The rules of keeping readers happy are so nebulous, with that independent My Blog streak running through every attempted list of "rules," but everything does seem to boil down to a central tenet -- use the cut tag, asshole.

It's often a justified complaint. Polls, once you've taken them, can mess with your friends page horribly. Quizzes are slow to load. Spoilers are annoying. So are large images.

So is someone's complaint about their period. So is someone's rant about their co-worker. So is someone's ode to their boyfriend. So is someone's depressed and borderline-suicidal drunken ramble. So is someone's long story in a fandom you don't read. So is someone's very very long meta essay.

Hm. We're hitting some gray, aren't we?

Along with the issues of readership and content, the cut-tag completes the holy trinity of Things That Make Livejournal An Ambivalent Blessing. You're already worrying about who's reading you and what you're having to choose to read or not read; now we're on the shaky ground of what you're sending out to people, and how.

I think it's fairly universally agreed-upon that things which might screw up a friendslist are verboten, along with spoilers and inappropriate (or just plain large) images. Those are acts of rudeness, an immediate visual intrusion into someone else's field of vision. Fine. But what about content?

I've heard it argued, and have argued myself, that looking at a huge block of text is annoying. I don't like having to scroll through an undifferentiated ramble about someone's afternoon; nor do I like having to scroll dooooown past someone's story I'm not interested in reading at the moment. You can pack a lot of verbiage into an entry, and having to skip it can be a pain. But is "scrolling is annoying" really a valid excuse to dictate how someone else presents their content?

There are other reasons for cutting. The old "TMI" reason is usually appreciated, though sometimes overextended. (We're all 99% women here; we can HANDLE a little menstruation talk, ladies.) Cutting for personal chatter reaches back up to the content issue -- it's a poster-initiated attempt to help others filter for content, and I think it's a pretty efficient fix for a prevalent problem. But once you start looking at plain old length, I think you're getting onto shaky ground. We're only talking about a few seconds of scrolling, and some possible eye-crossing. And yet I'd never dream of leaving, say, this essay uncut, because it would be annoying as hell. I think that fandom as a whole has settled on the "When in doubt, cut" philosophy, which is easy on our friendslists, but a little questionable in the face of the It's My Blog argument. But I guess no one said compromises had to be logical.

Mulling over all this has brought to mind a previous thought -- fandom needs its own blog system. I'm not just talking about something separate, like journalfen, although we could certainly use servers that weren't subject to the usual vagaries of Livejournal. I'm talking about a total structural redesign, based on the issues mentioned above: readership, content-filtering, and content presentation. The disputed idea suggested by the LJ staff of differentiating between people you read and people with access to your posts would be a big step towards allowing a larger readership. Creating an option to, when posting, categorize your post and add it to a filter being read by other users would be an excellent way to allow for more people to be heard (though I should mention here, because I forgot to above, that discussion-linking comms like [info]mutant_allies that allow for self-promotion do fill this need to a degree). I can imagine it being set up as "feeds", which could be added to any time someone created a new fandom. Users would not, of course, want to read every single Harry Potter post that every single Harry Potter fan writes, but feeds further subdivided by interests (in the style of mailing lists), combined with a way to select for certain users (a user listing?) would do a lot to fix that problem.

Since I don't have the first clue as to how journal software works, I'm probably harboring useless hopes. But a journal system that helped to change some of the inequities and inconveniences of our current system would be a serious step forward for fandom.



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[info]minim_calibre
2004-07-24 11:56 pm UTC (link)
I firmly believe that a perfect system for fandom would be much as described in this entry.

This used to be my fandom-only LJ, but then, in a fit of not really caring very much, I deleted the other one, and sort of shifted to where this one is all-purpose. I'd like to, without having to lock things down, click a button on a post so that if it's fannishly directed, it only shows up on the FLs of fellow fans, and if it's long, boring, personal stuff, it's seen only by the RL friend.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-25 12:46 am UTC (link)
Right, I've had great difficulties with the fan friend/RL friend dichotomy. I got an LJ for mainly personal use, but seen by fandom friends, three years ago; then some RL friends got the address and it's been a little wacky ever since. Now that it's mainly fan-talk, only a couple of brave RL friends still read, but it still confuses me when I'm telling my college roommate a story and she says "I know, I read it on your blog." I always get a wigged-out moment where I wonder *what else* she might have been reading lately. *g*

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]anaxila
2004-07-25 12:23 am UTC (link)
Wow. Brilliant meta. Like minim, I think the perfect system would be pretty much what you've laid out. I'm throwing this into memories, where it'll sit alongside another good meta from [info]alicettlg on the theme of "things to reference when the time comes if I really do check out of LJland soon".

Lately, I've been building my old skool blog back up on my own stinking webspace, and it's been very satisfying. It's actually six blogs, and if I do leave LJ I'll probably offer them as syndicated feeds (now that the doors on that feature have been thrown wide) so that anyone here still interested can continue to follow along.

The very features that make LJ so wonderful - the fun userpics & themes, the ease of a Friends page over individual blog-checking, the ubiquitous cut tag - are the same things that can suck all the fun right out of the whole experience after a while. I'm to the point now where I think I'd much rather not know if ANYONE is reading me than know exactly who's paying attention and who's lost interest in me from moment to moment. I don't need the pressure.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-25 12:49 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I'm really not sure if any of my suggestions are feasible, and I also wonder what Brad & co. think about the fact that their tool got co-opted by fandom. I sort of wish that a couple of BNFs would get it together and approach them about making a fannish version, actually, with the specifications we need -- I bet many fans would actually be willing to pay more to get things set up in a healthier, more convenient way.

I'm to the point now where I think I'd much rather not know if ANYONE is reading me than know exactly who's paying attention

Oh, I'm there. I still check frequently to see who's friended or dropped me, but mentally, I'm there. :)

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]coffeeandink, 2004-07-25 06:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]_swallow, 2004-07-25 09:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-25 10:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]_swallow, 2004-07-25 11:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-25 08:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jonquil, 2004-07-25 02:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-25 08:37 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]harriet_spy
2004-07-25 12:28 am UTC (link)
LJ desperately needs some kind of TrackBack functionality, as well as an MT-style categorization->feed feature. I don't know that it will ever get them; there just doesn't seem to be the demand.

I appreciate the advantages of LJs/blogs, but it does seem that the shift has virtually killed many of the higher (and more frustrating) aspirations of fandom culture. Going from Usenet to mailing lists to LJs, you see a tremendous dropoff in ability to engage in threaded discussions, which are, for all their limitations, really the only one you can sustain a *conversation* over time, rather than a series of individual voices chiming in, often unresponsive to, sometimes even unaware of, each other, which is what the LJ model is. (There's also the separate problem that you note of individuals being perceived as in some sense "owning" each individual discussion, which can be profoundly restrictive, a problem that a random Usenet thread didn't have.) Now these kinds of conversations have all sorts of pitfalls and unattractive features, and many people find them totally unsuited for community-building, but I think it's very difficult to have particularly sophisticated discourse without them. LJs are also horribly difficult to search and have only the most primitive indexes, which is just about as limiting.

I do think LJs have had a stupidifying effect on fannish discourse--not so much on individual fans, but on the way we discuss with each other. Having good discussions--ones that were reasonably civil, inclusive, and thoughtful--was probably the hardest social task *for* fandoms to achieve, but also one of the most rewarding, and with the advent of LJ, we seem to have nearly given up on this. It troubles me.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-25 12:55 am UTC (link)
LJ desperately needs some kind of TrackBack functionality

That's been the debate among Blogger blogs for a while, hasn't it? I've seen a few that use it, like yours and little.yellow.different, but use doesn't seem to be widespread, though I can see it would be nice.

from Usenet to mailing lists to LJs, you see a tremendous dropoff in ability to engage in threaded discussions, which are, for all their limitations, really the only one you can sustain a *conversation* over time

Exactly. I've been pleased to see the LJ crew update the way comments flow over time for usability (page numbers, threads, etc.), but I also feel like it just keeps shrinking the importance of the responses. I can't think of another way to design the entry format so as not to privilege the original post so heavily the replies, but I think it's one of the main flaws of the current conversation method.

And then sometimes you have the opposite problem -- someone makes a post that might not be very long or meaty, and yet the comments become the main attraction. And, falling back into the It's My Blog argument, it can be very frustrating for a poster who feels that her space (and her spotlight) has been overrun by the commenters. It would be nice if there were some kind of neutral blog to take wildly-spiraling discussions to, rather than continuing to use someone else's space. (Using the current model of discussion-ownership, at any rate.)

Having good discussions--ones that were reasonably civil, inclusive, and thoughtful

I'd be interested to know what you think has changed. I feel like the "stupidifying" effect mostly comes from the fact that people can toss off useless posts thirteen times a day without hearing anything back from Fandom about it, but I'm not sure what else you mean. Except, of course, the fact that comments just don't hold as much text as a Usenet post or mailing list, which bothers me.

.m

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(no subject) - [info]harriet_spy, 2004-07-25 01:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-25 10:38 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-25 10:44 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pandarus, 2004-07-26 11:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]butindreams, 2004-07-26 07:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2004-11-23 03:09 am UTC (Expand)

[info]oyceter
2004-07-25 12:44 am UTC (link)
I come from somewhere entirely different, given that I didn't really have the guts to get into fandom until LJ. Lots of stuff in this post I'm still pondering.

Side note: I think I'm the only person on LJ who is actually annoyed by LJ cuts. I'm so lazy that I'd rather scroll and skim past a long entry than take the effort to right-click-open-in-new-window for a cut, and I hate the thought that I might be bypassing something interesting during my skimming.

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[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-25 12:57 am UTC (link)
Hm. Yeah, it can make me feel a little anxious -- I'm always skimming and then thinking "Wasn't there a post a few pages back I wanted to go back to?" -- but mostly I really like it. I hate big blocks of text, and I like the way I can tell, bang, immediately what the post is about when the cut-tag says "My Novel, by Jane Doe". Plus, yes, I skip many things that are cut, and I'm happy I have the option. I'm probably bad that way.

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]oyceter, 2004-07-25 01:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-25 10:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2004-07-25 11:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]par_avion, 2004-07-25 09:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]oyceter, 2004-07-25 10:34 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]dakinigrl
2004-07-25 01:15 am UTC (link)
ow. my brain hurts. you have a lot of thoughts! wow.

Okay... I've definately been accused of having poor social skills, so maybe my two cents is worth about that in this topic, but... while I definately think cut tags are an awesome tool... I don't really mind when other people don't use them. I tend to read my friends list by scanning through to see what catches my eye that particular day. If everyone used cut tags all the time I'd have to click on them to be able to scroll through each post. What a pain in the arse that would be! Of course stories should be cut tagged... but rambling posts... ::shrug::: up to the person.

the reasons I am part of LJ is to stay in touch with a community of people (mostly women) who are quirky brainiacs (like me), share random interests (such as fandom related stuff, but certainy not ONLY that), have an additional source of support (as ludacris as that might seem to outsiders), find daily amusement, make pretty icons and see other people's pretty icons, practice my writing in a place where there is an audience.

I guess I'm not as invested in/affected by the social hierarchy of the whole thing, such as inequities within the community that you are pointing out. Not that I would say they don't exist... they do. But I guess I see inequity as being *inherent* in human interaction. I don't find it disturbing... and I don't actually believe that inequities should necessarily be evened out. I see them as being a natural part of the universe... necessary. Beautiful sometimes. Certainly refreshing in that it keeps things "mixed up".

As far as getting writing noticed, commented on, critiqued... yes, I think the community is often focused on social pandering rather than sharing, nurturing, and hammering our writing skills. What else could one expect from a collection of fame hos like us?? LOVE MEEEE!!!!! petmeeeee. But I have always assumed that the writing sharing, etc was the domain of lists and what not. Not really LJ. As far as I can tell LJ is a lovely freeforall. My favorite. No rules... post at will... buyerbeware... no prisoners. But again... I've been told that I have no social skills to speak of. Except offensive ones. ::grin::

Nice rant, Helixgrl. You got a big brain. Let me squish it. ; )

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-25 11:02 am UTC (link)
If everyone used cut tags all the time I'd have to click on them to be able to scroll through each post.

Sure, that's a definite argument. I come down in favor of cut-tags because I'd rather be able to pick and choose what I read based on the poster's self-categorization, but that's just my personal preference.

he reasons I am part of LJ is to stay in touch with a community of people (mostly women)...

Yeah, everyone has their own reasons, and so I think LJ works better for some than for others I'm obviously comparing it to fandom as I experienced it via mailing list and usenet, and for my reasons, I find it lacking. But I know tons of people are happier now than they would have been previously -- and it's attracted lots of new fans as well. :)

But I guess I see inequity as being *inherent* in human interaction.

Oh, of course. I'm not saying we're ever going to make it go away. I just think the deck is stacked even worse now that you have to fight even to get an audience.

But I have always assumed that the writing sharing, etc was the domain of lists and what not.

Well, it was, for a long time. But I think it's firmly over here. I haven't read a mailing list in weeks, and I used to be one of the last devotees hanging in there. People are as likely to post fic to their ljs as to lists (or even to their own sites!), and you almost never see discussion anymore.

But. Everyone obviously has their own experiences, so perhaps I'm overgeneralizing. :)

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]franzeska, 2004-07-26 03:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dakinigrl, 2004-07-26 03:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]phantomas, 2004-07-26 05:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dakinigrl, 2004-07-26 06:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]phantomas, 2004-07-27 04:45 am UTC (Expand)

[info]essene
2004-07-25 01:17 am UTC (link)
*braincells popping one by one*

Good heavens. I just...::glurble::

That's a hell of a post you have there, and a pretty squishy frontal lobe.

Probably the best dissection of the LJ phenomenon and its relation to fandom I've ever seen.

::applauds::

That being said. I don't know that a seperate entity is necessary. If one really wants just a blog, something that's all one's own and not necessarily fannish, one can definitely do it. Just make a new journal, with a new name. Make new, or different interests there and branch out in a different direction. Keep one for fandom and one for RL. There's plenty of folk using LJ who aren't necessarily into fandom. They're rare, and not something one sees often unless you venture outside (waaaaaay outside your FL) but they're there.

And I used "one" rather than "you", not to sound obsequious, but more so I wasn't refering to YOU specifically.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-25 11:05 am UTC (link)
Thanks -- I'm glad you liked the post. :)

That being said. I don't know that a seperate entity is necessary.

See, but I want a separate entity for the opposite reasons: to have a place that's better-suited to fan activities. I think LJ works great for folks like my RL friends and my younger sister, but not so well for fandom purposes. I just don't know exactly how it would be accomplished.

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fourteenlines
2004-07-25 02:20 am UTC (link)
Fandom doesn't, as you well know, ever stick with one method of functioning for very long. This happens to be the Livejournal heyday -- and frankly, it's one that I'm enjoying. One thing about LJ that I didn't get with blogs or mailing lists or boards is that it's much easier to keep up with many fandoms (or, alternately, many people, since my slow connection speed limited the amount of blogs I could read in a day.) It does tend to devolve into a lot more personal territory, but I've never particularly seen this as a problem -- people with excessively or exclusively personal posts go on their own filter. I think perhaps more fandoms need communities like [info]mutant_allies, and for meta there's always [info]metafandom. It's summer, so we're all a little slower on that end.

Someday -- possibly soon, possibly not so soon -- someone will come up with a system that works even better than Livejournal for fandom. Because I can't deny that it does work pretty handily -- we wouldn't be using it if it didn't, or at least if it didn't work better than a lot of the other things we've used in the past.

I see your point about BNFs and friend-of lists; it might even just behoove LJ to make the friend-of list mandatorily hidden. That would solve a lot of the BNF Wars problem right there.

I personally see Livejournal as a personal space in a public place. So I can talk about whatever I want, but I have to have some consideration for other people, the people who've added me to their reading lists for one reason or another. If I'm at a party, I'm going to have the conversation I want with whomever I want, but I'm not going to do it so loudly that everyone is obliged to hear. If it's personal, I'm gonna be quiet and put it behind a cut-tag. If it's not too personal, I'll leave it un-cut. But if it evolves into a really long conversation, we're maybe going to retreat to another area of the house altogether. If it's really personal, I'm gonna pull a few people into the bathroom and lock the door.

I think the difficulties inherent in Livejournal arise because it's actually built pretty organically, and is a lot more susceptible to the vagaries of Chaos Theory than other fandom venues have been in the past. I spend a little less time on "serious" fandom matters or discussions over all, but in the interim I'm getting out of it what, if I'm honest, I'm really here for anyway: meaningful relationships with people who happen to like many of the same things I do, and who've had pretty similar experiences.

Even back on mailing lists, I was still doing it. It was just a lot harder, and it took a lot more time.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]kaysha
2004-07-25 10:22 am UTC (link)
If I'm at a party, I'm going to have the conversation I want with whomever I want, but I'm not going to do it so loudly that everyone is obliged to hear. If it's personal, I'm gonna be quiet and put it behind a cut-tag. If it's not too personal, I'll leave it un-cut. But if it evolves into a really long conversation, we're maybe going to retreat to another area of the house altogether. If it's really personal, I'm gonna pull a few people into the bathroom and lock the door.

Oh, what a.. nice comparison!

(Sorry, nothing essential to add to the discussion, I only wanted to note that.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-25 08:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]franzeska, 2004-07-26 03:12 am UTC (Expand)

[info]infinitemonkeys
2004-07-25 02:53 am UTC (link)
Brilliant post .

You hit the nail on the head with why I am so ambivalent about LJ and yet love it so much. Yes, it's a lovely free-for-all but it's killed many of those long, meaty, personal emails stone-dead. Everything is "read it on my LJ". I *really* lament their passing.

Also, the flipside of the glorious array of multifandom shiny is that the commitment to a fandoms has, on balance, decreased. Peeved with the way that the show you love is going? Switch to another. Write shorter. We're seeing fewer long stories that jump off the cliff of canon and dive screaming into the sea of ... um, something deep and metaphorical. There isn't always that sense of deep engagement and the meaty discussions that arise from that -- and there's much less pressure to keep discourse civil, as has already been said.

I love the fact that LJ can alter one's perceptions of a show, book or movie but I think that is not an unalloyed pleasure.

And then there's the complex social dance of friending/commenting. If one comments on someone's LJ and one's comment is the only one not answered, is that being snubbed? If a person friends one on a subsidiary list should one be insulted? What's the appropriate period of time to wait before unfriending someone who has just unfriended you, so that it doesn't just look like childish payback. Which, of course, it is? *g* Gives me a headache.

I use cut tags because there are now people on my friends list who are not even fannish acquaintances and with whom I have had no 'personal' interaction. They're just *there*. I reckon that people who are just *there* and don't know me in any capacity won't bother to click a cut tag. It's a sort of hiding.

I could say more about the friends list and the peculiar effects of slipstreaming and ghosts of fandoms past, but as you say, anyone who needs a part II is clearly rambling. *g*

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]coffeeandink
2004-07-25 06:49 am UTC (link)
Write shorter. We're seeing fewer long stories that jump off the cliff of canon and dive screaming into the sea of ... um, something deep and metaphorical.

Ironically (or do I mean hypocritically?) for someone who's never written fanfic longer than 2K words, I agree with this. Drabbles are a plague on fandom. And yet I have written them, and even liked some I've read.

I love the fact that LJ can alter one's perceptions of a show, book or movie but I think that is not an unalloyed pleasure.

Word! (I think I just dragged the level of conversation in this post down by 100 IQ points.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-25 10:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]coffeeandink, 2004-07-25 02:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-26 01:20 pm UTC (Expand)
Last year's remix - [info]coffeeandink, 2004-07-26 01:36 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Last year's remix - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-26 01:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cathexys, 2004-07-25 08:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-25 09:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-26 01:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cathexys, 2004-07-26 01:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-26 01:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]franzeska, 2004-07-26 03:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-26 01:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]copracat, 2004-07-27 10:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-28 10:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cofax7, 2004-07-25 11:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jonquil, 2004-07-25 02:08 pm UTC (Expand)
haha - [info]prettyveela, 2004-07-25 03:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]infinitemonkeys, 2004-07-26 06:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-25 09:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-26 01:14 pm UTC (Expand)
LJ, blogging, and fandom
[info]coffeeandink
2004-07-25 07:07 am UTC (link)
I love this icon. It makes no sense in the context of LJ, but I do love it anyway. In the context of this discussion, I sometimes suspect those of us who came to fandom via other electronic forums sometimes make the past more golden in memory. Thoughtful conversation is rare on LJ. But I found it pretty rare on mailing lists and Usenet, too, which is why I treasured the people who regularly offered it.

A couple of minor corrections: Zines actually predated cons. The ongoing textual conversations in zines were what inspired the first face-to-face meetings of fans. (This is well documented in several histories of SF fandom. I don't know if it's documented for media fandom -- but since media fandom seemed to take off from SF fandom in the 70s, I am pretty sure it's the case.) It was (and still is) the custom in SF fandom to produce "fanzines," which were as often personal anecdotes or political commentary as they were anything to do with fandom -- they were fannish by virtue of having been produced by fans. I've seen several Old School SF fans refer to LJ as "an electronic fanzine."

LJ is a blogging implement is peculiar and seems to be kind of sideways from the larger or at least more public world of blogs; I've seen several blog researchers call LJ "a black hole" in puzzlement and frustration, despite the significant strides LJ's made toward making itself more transparent to other blogging technologies in the past year and a half -- allowing its users to add blogs as syndicated feeds and automatically syndicating its users' entries in the two most popular syndication formats.

I suspect the apparently hermetic nature of LJ is what's led to so much fannish activity here; I still see people becoming startled when their LJs are mentioned in places they don't expect and consider more "public." (Hell, I get startled, too.) So some of the ... insularity, maybe? of LJ in general and flists in particular is, I suspect, what's made LJ more popular for fans than other blogging technologies.

I also wonder how much the prevalence of mixed personal/fannish journals is a reflection of the going *presence* of media fandom--it seems to be going much more mainstream, and there seems to be less reason for people to be quite so cautious about personal identity issues, except for the reasons you should always be cautious about them on the Internet.

I am losing my point. What a shame comments don't allow cut-tags. (Joking! Joking!)

I wonder about audience. One reason I cut-tag long posts is that I know the people reading me come from so many different venues, I assume at least a quarter of them *won't* be interested in any given post. When I did a poll, I was startled to see that more people registered interest in my book commentary or personal discussion than in my TV commentary -- despite the fact that I recognized the vast majority of the names from media fandom. Now that I have subdivided (like an amoeba!), only a quarter of my flist has followed me to things exclusively fannish -- and one of the things that's interesting about *that* is a lot of them are people I'd assumed were dead journals, or had me on filters they never checked, because they don't comment and when I check their journals they don't post. I've heard it said that only a tenth of the members of a mailing list or BBS or Usenet group are active posters, and the rest are lurkers -- what's interesting about LJ is that it may make this more visible, but only if you assume the names on Read-by actually *are* reading.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

Re: LJ, blogging, and fandom
[info]coffeeandink
2004-07-25 06:12 pm UTC (link)
going *presence*

growing presence.

What's going is my brain.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: LJ, blogging, and fandom - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-25 09:23 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LJ, blogging, and fandom - [info]coffeeandink, 2004-07-26 12:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LJ, blogging, and fandom - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-26 01:28 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LJ, blogging, and fandom - [info]coffeeandink, 2004-07-26 01:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LJ, blogging, and fandom - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-28 10:08 am UTC (Expand)

[info]justhuman
2004-07-25 07:17 am UTC (link)
Interesting observations. I am a huge fan of the cut tag in general, some of the things you mentioned, Spoilers, Stories, Quizzes, Really Long posts, Picture really top my list of things that should be cut tagged.

There's definitely people I read for the fannish content. There are some that I started reading for the fannish content but stuck around for the day to day stuff, and in some cases, actually stopped readig their fannish content.

As inacurate as it is, I love LJ because it is a glimpse of a person and not just a stereotype than one finds on a list. I'm for posting anything. Multiple blog identies generally have no appeal for me.

I took a browze in [info]suggestions and found this entry that describes a method of filtering friends based on category of conversation. It's been submitted to the developers for condsideration. I think it might be better to sort on LJ Interests instead of custom categories... off to add my two cents.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]amberdiceless
2004-07-25 02:36 pm UTC (link)
I agree that Interests would be a good way to categorize posts--they could be organized via a list sort of the way Memorable Entries are.

Also, what about if Comment posts had an option that would allow you to (immediately or retroactively) post your Comment as a new entry to your own journal, appending a link at the end of the original Comment, so people following that thread could skip to the other LJ and not continue cluttering the original author's?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-25 09:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-25 09:29 pm UTC (Expand)
Beautiful post.
[info]laurashapiro
2004-07-25 08:41 am UTC (link)
You've helped clarify my reasons for remaining ambivalent about LJ, especially with regard to the difficulty of following threaded conversations. If I could change one thing about this environment (and this is true for a lot of blogging software, not just LJ), it would be to remove the "subsidiary" status of comments. I have no idea how I'd handle that in terms of user interface; it's certainly a conundrum. But it drives me crazy.

Regarding cut-tags, I've recently started cutting for length, and you know what happens when I do that? I get fewer comments. You'd think I'd get more, because people who wanted to read what I'm talking about would be able to see immediately what my post was about and would actively click the cut-tag link, but no. Dumping the whole, lengthy post onto people's friendslists means more people will read what you have to say. Cut-tags just make it easier for people to skip past you; they don't make it easier for interested folks to read you. Fascinating.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Beautiful post.
[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-26 06:31 pm UTC (link)
Cut-tags just make it easier for people to skip past you; they don't make it easier for interested folks to read you.

That's a really *interesting* take. I think I've usually had the opposite experience -- when I put up a long uncut chunk of text, I get the impression people are just skimming by it, especially if it's not directly fannish. I once posted an unusually long entry that required a couple of scrolls and didn't cut, trying to sort of break out of that whole others'-expectations-conforming thing, and not a single comment did I get.

Of course, that could be a reflection on the content or quality of the post, but still. It's not an exact science. *g*

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]valancy
2004-07-25 09:41 am UTC (link)
I'm fascinated by this, but at the same time, I really like the fact that I get to enjoy people's random thoughts as well as their fannish lives. I've often thought that was the best part of LJ, that I got to know some BNFs as people, and not just as a story.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-26 06:33 pm UTC (link)
Oh, *definitely*. I've been thrilled to find out how very cool and interesting some of the fans I know are in real life. I've also found out some are kooky to the point of insanity. *g*

And then there are the people who I don't think I'd ever had gotten to know in the average mill of mailing list operations, so there are definite pros here.

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]rainkatt
2004-07-25 09:56 am UTC (link)
This is fascinating. I come from a really different place, so much of what you're saying is new to me. I've never been in a fandom before, and am barely on the fringes of one now. I mostly post personal stuff, which I consider essentially boring to everyone but the few RL friends who read my LJ. I nearly always cut-tag, because I figure the nice folks who've friended me so that I can read their fic don't need to see my babble on their friends page. I came to LJ for the fic, but I've discovered that I like reading the personal posts. I like cut-tags, but there are couple of folks who rarely do that on my list, and it doesn't really bother me. I can scroll if I'm not interested; I have no problem with the idea of opening a tag on to another tab to read later. I have found that if I'm in a hurry, I'm more inclined to click on the cut-tag, or mark it to come back to, than I am to read an open post. Perverse of me, but there you go. As for lengthy threaded discussions, unless someone points me to them later, I rarely go back to see what happened. I trust my friends to point these things out to me.

Since I've not been involved in other forms of communication online, I suspect that my view of the whole thing is incredibly simplistic. I'm always amazed when someone friends me and then sticks around. There's still the momentary feeling of distress if they do leave, but I'm a big girl and I can take it. LJ has been magical for me in many ways, allowing me to meet people from all over with many different interests. I never would have joined a list, so the accessibility has given me an in, where I otherwise would have just been a casual reader of fic who lurked on a TWoP board. At least I now give feedback...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-26 06:35 pm UTC (link)
I don't think there's anything particularly *wrong* with Livejournal, and really, though I may not have given this impression above, it's not even necessarily worse than other forms of fan communication. There are just some infrastructural problems that have me a little worrried. :)

At least I now give feedback...

I hear you on that 100%. Being able to leave a quick comment has vastly increased my feedback volume, because before I always felt pressured to write lengthy e-mails. I certainly appreciate *that* function of LJ.

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]sine_que_non767
2004-07-25 10:02 am UTC (link)
Brilliant - this sums up what's wrong with the LJ interaction system. Yet on different days, some of these factors are great, if I'm in the mood for them I like being surprised by what's on my FL. I like discovering new people through comments and completely random threads. But it does make you realise that usernames are everything - there are people who get automatically friended because that's just what you do in a certain fandom. 'Everyone' knows them, they're seen 'everywhere', and it's a snowball effect.

I know people who make incredibly short posts several times a day, people who post large quiz results or large polls, people who write about personal things at length and uncut, people who write at length and uncut, period.

These people, I defriend. I haven't the time. And usually, if someone makes a few articulate interesting posts, chances are they're the sort of person who will continue to do so - and thus I will friend them, for their posts.

But now the un-famous have been deprived of even the possibility of being heard, simply because if you don't want to be interested, you don't have to be. Can you imagine a mailing list, en masse, deciding that only the most well-liked people could post?

This is the worst thing about LJ, I think.

Also that there's always this indefinable sense of missing interesting conversations. You can't be everywhere on LJ, or find everyone whose posts you'd be regularly interested in. It's very hit-and-miss, and that's a shame.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]franzeska
2004-07-26 03:45 am UTC (link)
I find it restful in a way because lj is also very time specific. I may be missing great conversations, but I miss them in RL all the time. LJ forces me to let go of the idea that I could go read everything. Of course if you refuse to accept that fact, lj is a bad, bad place.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]sine_que_non767, 2004-07-26 03:59 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-26 06:39 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cereta
2004-07-25 10:48 am UTC (link)
Wow, how much do I agree with you on the subject thing?

It's always puzzled me a little when people praise LJ for letting you customize your fannish experience, because to me, it did just the opposite. Six years ago, I wouldn't know who all the members of N'Sync are at the same time that I couldn't identify a single song if you shot me with it. I wouldn't know about kerfuffles in Harry Potter fandom even before I belonged to a single discussion group.

Some of this has been good, I think. I've found new fandoms beyond what my immediate circle of friends was into. And I'll somewhat shamefacedly admit that I enjoy a good dust-up now and then. But more control?

I suppose much of that comes down to whether fandom for the individual fan is about topics or people. I exist somewhere towards the middle of that continuum, so I like the way LJ lets me keep up with certain people even as we have zero fandoms in common. But there are days that I long for a little topic control.

Oh, and, of course ;): would you have any interest in submitting this to the Symposium?

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

I second that request!
[info]mecurtin
2004-07-25 01:17 pm UTC (link)
I was looking through the comments to see if anyone had pimped you to the FFS yet. *pleeeeez??*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

and another thing -- - [info]mecurtin, 2004-07-25 01:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lexcorp_hope, 2004-07-25 07:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-26 06:45 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cofax7
2004-07-25 11:13 am UTC (link)
For the last year, about, I've been thinking about social dynamics in fandom and how they are formed by the fannish infrastructure.

You've gone and written my post for me! Kinda. *grin*

I find the development of a new element in the fannish economy-- the use of icons -- to be really kinda cool. It opens up the world of fan art to those who couldn't go to cons to see the art displays and zines.

Quick: When did the BNF = bad!wrong!evol concept first evolve? Answer: At the same time as the ability to see how many Friends a person has.

I would contest this: the BNF issue has been around for yonks, and there's always been a certain amount of resentment about the BNFs. They're the ones who get recced on the recs sites, they're the ones whose atxa or atxc posts always got the most responses, they're the ones whose approbrium would help a newbie writer get some attention. Because BNF is status, and because we like to think fandom is non-hierarchical and anti-establishment, anyone who gives off even a whiff of Status is subject to criticism by those who feel that they are lower in the rankings. However, your point about the Flist numbers is well-taken.

I approve of hiding the Friend-Of lists, and wish I could hide my Flist somehow. Who I chose to read is nobody's business but my own (and that other individual). ::shrugs:: On the other hand, I'm a hypocrite, since I surf other folks' flists regularly. It's how I find the people I want to read in a new fandom.

I really like your concept of the topic-filter. There are people whose personal lives I don't have much interest in, but whose fannish commentary and content are compelling. And then there are people I know mostly as personal friends but who don't watch the same shows as me anymore. Eh. On the other hand, as K pointed out, the current system is primarily responsible for me falling into Stargate, since Barkley, Vonnie, and Katie were all talking about it.

No one system is foolproof, this one just has different problems than Usenet and email did. Although I join K in mourning the end of the very long email conversations. (Makes note to email some people...)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-26 07:54 pm UTC (link)
You've gone and written my post for me! Kinda. *grin*

Hee. I'd still like to see your post. Dialogue, multiple views, and all that. :)

I find the development of a new element in the fannish economy-- the use of icons -- to be really kinda cool.

I do enjoy it, since the only place I could use my graphic art before was in story "covers." But it's still *changed* fandom interaction, I think.

I would contest this: the BNF issue has been around for yonks, and there's always been a certain amount of resentment about the BNFs.

True. I definitely recall the resentment, and some of the problems it engendered. But I recall those as being more about BNFs being picked on because they were visible, or for certain actions (whether or not they were the ones controlling the actions.) It seems to me, in my experience, that the LJ BNF fights have been simply about the fact that they WERE "big name fans," and not for anything in particular they've done. The always-seething resentment seems to have just boiled down to "you're well-known and I'm not", which is weird. And like I said above, I think being able to see so clearly how "popular" someone is (in the coinage of the day) has contributed to that.

But I probably oversimplified the original statement.

I really like your concept of the topic-filter. There are people whose personal lives I don't have much interest in, but whose fannish commentary and content are compelling.

Right, and vice versa. I just wish I knew how to get the ball rolling on that. :)

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)

forgot to add:
[info]cofax7
2004-07-25 11:16 am UTC (link)
And one of the functions I'd like to see in LJ is the ability to search for cross-references to one's LJ. Like the track-back function, I'd like to know who's talking about me. *grin*

Because lo! I am paranoid. Heh.

There's a good reason to keep LJ off the Google searchability, but...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: forgot to add:
[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-26 07:56 pm UTC (link)
I do have my LJ listed for Google searching, but I think I'm going to take it off, because sometimes it turns up old posts from before I was separating fannish and personal topics very well. But then, I need to reorganize my blog anyhow.

But yes! TrackBack functionality would be great. I hate the paranoid/egomaniacal feeling I get trolling around trying to find links back. At least some kind of stats counter...

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ranalore
2004-07-25 12:02 pm UTC (link)
This is an excellent post, and certainly I resisted blogging of any kind for some time because of the mix of personal with fannish. I'm a hermit by nature, and the "off-topic" posts on my various mailing lists already drove me crazy enough, with their discussions of new kittens and switched medication and things that I really, really did not want to know about complete strangers.

However, as more and more mailing list posts on topics I was interested in included links to blog discussions of the same topics, I finally gave in and started reading these discussions. And then, when certain of the discussers really caught my interest, I started following the links over to their own blogs and journals to see what else they had to say.

Quite often, what I found were these long and wonderful essays on various meta aspects of fandom. There were rambles about the writing process, examinations of particular trends in fanfiction, comparisons of this media source with that media source. In fact, the thing I liked best, and the thing which finally drew me into creating an LJ of my own, was the multi-fandom, meta-fandom nature of blogs and online journals.

Of the various mailing lists to which I belonged, only FCA-L really allowed for meta-discussion. Yet, even on FCA-L, I know that I personally would often reconsider a post because it drew heavily from the main fandom in which I was involved, and most members of the list didn't know the fandom, and weren't interested in it. I felt awkward providing a link to a story and then reviewing it in-depth, because again, the story might be in a fandom the majority of listmembers didn't read, and I would have been clogging up their inboxes for something that wouldn't hold their interest. FCA-L was (and is) a list meant to encompass the wider field of fandom, but as such I think it often discludes certain topics that are narrower in focus, but not narrow enough for single-fandom lists.

And speaking of single-fandom lists, I think a lot of the talk of "controlling your fannish experience" in LJ arises from dealing with list rules and peer-enforced tone. Discussion that involved another fandom was deemed "off-topic." Posts about the writing process, about what you looked for as a reader, about what you felt made a good story review, were all off-topic. Even when there was nothing specifically in the list rules to forbid a certain line of discussion, there were a few times I got complaints for introducing a topic, and I saw similar complaints about posts made by other people.

This is not something I have to deal with when posting to my LJ. I may get vehement disagreement with what I've said, but only once have I had someone try to tell me I shouldn't have said it in the first place. Where on a list, I would have stopped to consider, "Oh, man, is that topic really not appropriate for this venue?", even if no other poster piped up to agree with her (and I never saw a time when that was the case), on my LJ, I can simply say, "Sorry, my space. You don't have to click on the cut-tag or link to read me."

Along with the lack of off-topicness, not only can I talk about all my fandoms in a single post, knowing that most of those reading are indeed interested, or else they wouldn't have friended me, but I can read about all my various fandoms without having to subscribe to a dozen or so lists. I can track favorite authors, critics, reviewers, and discussers across fandoms, without having to try to find them after they suddenly disappear of said dozen lists.

I think searchable categories and subjects would be a wonderful idea. I think being able to link a post to one or several of your specified interests could be all kinds of useful. Even without these features, though, I have found LJ suits my own style and preferences better than mailing lists or message boards did. I think this is in large part because I am a multi-fandom fan, but also because I am a fan of fandom, and LJ has made the meta a little easier to find and to create.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]franzeska
2004-07-26 03:52 am UTC (link)
I can track favorite authors, critics, reviewers, and discussers across fandoms, without having to try to find them after they suddenly disappear of said dozen lists.

Yes yes yes yes yes. I stopped being interested in lists when all of the ones I happened to be on were abandoned by the people I found interesting. If I didn't happen to be close to them, it was hard to stalk them figure out where they went. I've found some of them again on lj and am happily reading their recipes and discussions of ingrown toenails. That and the glorious, glorious meta.

Part of the change for me was that I've stopped caring much about fanfiction itself. I'm more interested in the fans themselves now.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-26 08:03 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]accidentalwords
2004-07-25 01:28 pm UTC (link)
(via kita)

Great post!

About cut-tags, I think it's interesting that oyceter, who said she really got into fandom via lj, isn't so bothered by non-cut posts. To me that seems less like coincidence and more like a consequence of getting into fannish interaction via a medium that promotes skim reading of blocks of text to determine whether a post or comment is worth your time. This as opposed to the mailing list/e-mail format that others are used to where the information contained in a post is sort of encoded by symbols in e-mail subject lines -- like B/A, OT, BDSM -- which themselves sort of act as cut-tags for your inbox.

The feeds thing I think is an excellent idea, but I'm wondering if ontology might be a problem. For fic we have pretty solid classification conventions, but for meta and such the lines are a good deal more fuzzy. Is a movie review meta? How critique heavy does it have to be to qualify?

As for comments, I think:
1. The ability to flag your interest in a discussion so that you're e-mailed when anyone adds a new comment to the post, not just when someone replies directly to a post or comment you've made,
2. The ability to view entries on your flist sorted by most recently posted and commented on, and
3. A mechanism to highlight comments made since you last visited a thread
Would help in elevating comments to the same level as the original posts.

Hope that wasn't too random and incoherent.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]franzeska
2004-07-26 03:54 am UTC (link)
Wow. If they ever actually implemented those changes, I'd never want to look for another type of forum again. I love lj, but the lack of #1 really annoys me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]cofax7, 2004-07-26 09:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-26 01:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-26 08:09 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]pauraque
2004-07-25 01:58 pm UTC (link)
We're all women here

No, we're not. Though I can't say I especially care when women discuss their periods.

You may be interested to know that the LJ higher-ups have for quite some time been discussing the possibility of implementing categorization of posts by subject for the benefit of readers. If it eventually happened, I wouldn't be at all surprised, nor would I be displeased.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]phantomas
2004-07-26 05:27 pm UTC (link)
One of the good sides of LJ...I really like your icon and went browsing on your LJ...is it alright if I friend you? No need to friend back of course (I think I'm boring most of the time, personally *g*) -- and I have a very thik skin, too ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]pauraque, 2004-07-26 09:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]phantomas, 2004-07-27 04:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-26 08:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pauraque, 2004-07-26 10:03 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]forked
2004-07-25 02:28 pm UTC (link)
Really nice overview of LJ and it's pros and cons as a fan tool (pun intended). I resisted LJ for a long time because I think it has some real drawbacks- I finally got one mostly so I could comment without being anonymous).

LJ has its benefits- though I think sadly its biggest draw is the fact it's so popular. It's probably popular in part because it is so easy to set up and post on, while still allowing some flexibility for those who want to play.

But the drawbacks are obvious. What has always irked me most about it is the transient nature of the discourse. Now, ML's and boards have this problem too- but that's probably why I've always preferred archives as a way of housing fic or meta or episode reviews or... well, pretty much all things fannish- or at least all things fannish worth noting. With LJ I feel like I'm stumbling around mining for gold- finding an interesting post is a random occurrence and lord forbid I forget to add it to memories, because if I don't, I'll probably never find it again. Conversations often take place in a vacuum, with people completely unaware that the conversations have been had before. It's simply irksome, and the use of memories is a crappy way to archive issues of interest- particularly when it's so hard to find all of the topics of interest! And yes, I do think there are probably many posts out there by folks who aren't friended by tons of people that simply get overlooked. How could they not, given the way LJ is designed.

Of course, complaining is easy- building a better system is hard! I've actually been screwing around with it, more as a mental exercise than anything else. It's VERY difficult to come up with a system that works. Based on my screwing around- here's what I think thus far:

1. A good 'fannish journaling system' needs to operate like LJ does- with a central database and interface. (Technical reasons- I'm not so sure RSS feeds would cut it.) It also has to be multi-fandom, and it would probably be best if it operated just like LJ- in short, NOT limited to fandom posts. Why? Because who wants to have multiple journals. However...

2. What we've lost is a capacity to filter for subject, and I don't think anyone realized how valuable that was until it was gone.

Bingo- categorization is key. What I envision is a hierarchical system- at the lowest level is an individual blog- and a person can post whatever they want to that. Post are assigned to categories- fannish, personal life, whatever. There needs to be subcategories as well- so a fannish post would be marked by fandom and by type of post (fanfic, meta, episode review, fic rec, whatever). Now, at this point- still pretty much like LJ, just with categories.

Here's where the difference comes in- those articles can be cross-posted. Not like x-posting on LJ, which is basically copying a post to two or more places. Instead, the same article (all comments included) shows up in more than one place. So you have a structure like:

Central archive
Numorous 'groups'
blogs

(cont...)

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]forked
2004-07-25 02:30 pm UTC (link)
If a comment is made to the article in any of those spots, it shows up in all locations. Further, by having the 'central archive', where ALL posts can potentially go, it addresses But now the un-famous have been deprived of even the possibility of being heard, simply because if you don't want to be interested, you don't have to be. Having a central archive that actual works as an archive also addresses some of the problems I have with the transient nature of LJ posts. Instead of simply seeing what the latest post to the community was, you can look at it by topic (thus the categorization issue coming into play). Want to find all of the SV episode reviews? No problem- go to the central archive, hit 'episode reviews' and there is every post that's been submitted by ALL members. Want to find all of the Harry Potter stories- well, you have a functioning fanfic archive- a well designed archive!- all in one spot, rather than having to hunt through 80 million journals with a whole lot of different topics- and a single story spread out over 15 different posts.

In short- the central archive gives primacy to the post and topic, not the poster. Yet the individual blogs still operate as they do on LJ- you can friend who you like, they can post about anything under the sun, groups can form around specific topics, friending and unfriending (though I'd change the terminology) can occur at will- yet anything someone deems relevant for archiving can with the click of a button be included in the central archive.

It's sort of a melding of blogs and archives- hopefully to get the best of both worlds.

Mulling over all this has brought to mind a previous thought -- fandom needs its own blog system. I'm not just talking about something separate, like journalfen, although we could certainly use servers that weren't subject to the usual vagaries of Livejournal. I'm talking about a total structural redesign, based on the issues mentioned above: readership, content-filtering, and content presentation.

You've got my total agreement here. Sadly, I don't think it will happen. First, I've just been dinking with it and can say for certain that it's a complex bit of coding. On a scale the size of LJ, even just the fannish part of it, I'd imagine it would be a nightmare. However, the bigger problem has to do with the fact LJ is so entrenched. Getting people to switch over to a new system would be difficult. Further, fandom politics always play a part in this, so as soon as you did manage to get a couple of BNF's on board, you'd probably have other folks going 'Oh no- I don't want to be associated with them!'. LJ seems like neutral ground, and EVERYBODY has an LJ. Whoever started up an alternative would have to be well enough known to get others to following them (otherwise it doesn't work)- but if they are that well known, they are probably disliked by a different segment. It's a catch-22.

To sum- great article. LJ tends to drive me batshit as often as not. However, I'm not actually holding out much hope on an alternative arising any time soon.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-27 09:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]isiscolo, 2004-07-25 07:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]musesfool, 2004-07-28 10:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sine_que_non767, 2004-07-26 04:09 am UTC (Expand)

[info]kyuuketsukirui
2004-07-25 05:00 pm UTC (link)
As someone who had an LJ before getting into fandom and as someone who uses it mainly for non-fannish purposes (though I also post fic and stuff), I am completely boggled by this entire post. I had no idea people felt this way.

there's no gentle, peer-based way of encouraging people to post less, or post shorter, or post "on topic." (And neither, it can be argued, should there be.)

I can't even imagine how it could be argued that there should. It's people's journals. Who are you or anyone else to tell them what they can and can't post in their own journal? Bizarre.

I mean, sure I wish people wouldn't post quizzes or if they did, they'd put them behind a cut tag, but the fact of the matter is that it hasn't anything to do with me, really, and if I don't like that kind of person who posts only quizzes, then I won't friend them.

As for non-fandom content, I'm not bothered in the least. I enjoy reading about what people do outside of fandom, and even though I have things like [info]metablog and [info]daily_snitch friended, I don't think of LJ as being fandom-based. I read fandom stuff on LJ and I read non-fandom stuff. I don't see why they should necessarily be separate.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]phantomas
2004-07-26 05:32 pm UTC (link)
Totally agree with you. I think it;s an issue of control for most people, they feel the 'tool' is evading them and 'something' is happening some place else.

Me, I like the control I have in LJs and the individual responsability that comes with it.
I also like the mailing lists I used to be on and still am on, but they were more insular than LJ is.

They are just different tools :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]sophia_helix, 2004-07-27 09:56 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]loveanddarkness
2004-07-25 07:14 pm UTC (link)
I found this from a comment by [info]infinitemonkeys and I find it most enlightening.

I first got an LJ because I heard about it through fandom. But it's come to be fairly diverse, and absolutely essential, for me because I extended my interests, friends, and communities way beyond fandom. The shortcomings you've noted here do bother me, and I hope for their remedy someday.

This post is Finest Kind. I added it to my memories. Thanks for sharing good thoughts, m'dear!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-27 09:59 pm UTC (link)
But it's come to be fairly diverse, and absolutely essential, for me because I extended my interests, friends, and communities way beyond fandom.

I've had my mind wonderfully expanded by Livejournal, and I don't deny that. What Jintian and I tried to start with the Glass Onion mailnig list was just done immeasurably better by LJ, and we both fully admitted at the time we stopped modding that list that LJ was about to kill mailing lists. But I still miss a *lot* of things about those days, not least the extra measure of civility and structure there seemed to be.

(Or maybe I'm just nostalgic. Having seen a bit more of the world, XF was a remarkably polite fandom, and Scullyfic and GO remarkabl polite lists within that sphere. Totally, totally spoiled. *g*)

This post is Finest Kind. I added it to my memories.

::Blush:: Thanks! :)

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lexcorp_hope
2004-07-25 07:15 pm UTC (link)
You just outlined the drawbacks of an LJ-located fandom beautifully; I've been mashing around for two years trying to explain my discomfit and failed- now I can just point to this entry because it has been done and it has been Done Well, thank you so much for sharing!

I cut for nebulous "length" reasons myself. I tend to keep Smallville meta in cut tags (because I figure it's annoying to scroll past Stuff That's Not My Fandom,) but I don't usually cut fandom meta (because as far as I know, save one or two people, everybody on my flist participates in one fandom or another.) The length requirement is mixed up with the boring requirement; I just assume fandom specific meta is more boring to a multifandom audience, than fandom-general meta. And wow, meta is starting to sound like a brand of tinned cheese the more I say it, so I will shut up!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-27 10:04 pm UTC (link)
I've been mashing around for two years trying to explain my discomfit and failed- now I can just point to this entry because it has been done and it has been Done Well, thank you so much for sharing!

Thank *you*! :) And I'd love to see your post anyhow -- nothing spices up a dialogue like many, many voices. :)

I tend to keep Smallville meta in cut tags (because I figure it's annoying to scroll past Stuff That's Not My Fandom,) but I don't usually cut fandom meta

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I cut anything that I put any kind of thought into, which is weird now that I think about it -- why would I rather have random, silly little posts out there, but the essay I spent all evening on tucked away behind a tiny link? Must be something about that Anti-Hubris thing fandom has going on...

And wow, meta is starting to sound like a brand of tinned cheese the more I say it, so I will shut up!

Bwah! I love it when I try to use the word in casual everyday conversation, and people look at me funny. Gotta love the way fandom co-opts litcrit terms for its own nefarious purposes...

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)

beautifully put
[info]anajana
2004-07-25 11:38 pm UTC (link)
I'm relatively new to fandom and livejournal, so much of this is illuminating as history. I'd like to post and be read, learn to write better, read others' work, and now I'm sorry I missed the mailing list days. But as a newbie, this beats nothing. And thoughtful, detailed essays like this one are absolute pleasures. I will keep my cramps in one place and my writing in another from now on. (Besides, the ink just sinks into the pads, while the blood runs off the writing paper...just like in real life.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

Re: beautifully put
[info]sophia_helix
2004-07-27 10:07 pm UTC (link)
now I'm sorry I missed the mailing list days

Well, don't let my rampant nostalgia fool you -- there were plenty of catfights and problems back then, and obviously there must have been something good enough about LJ that we all ended up over there. Maybe we *needed* to break out of the tight constraints of "on topic" and let our personalities break free -- maybe it added something to the dialogue -- but I still miss some of the structure and the respect inherent with the mailing list/bbs sphere.

::shrug:: But then, as a newbie, I was nostalgic for the cons of the 70s and 80s. It all works out. :)

.m

(Reply to this) (Parent)

mailing lists - (Anonymous), 2004-08-02 06:07 pm UTC (Expand)

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